By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Whether or not times are complicated, it is critical for people to become the CEO of their careers instead of outsourcing the responsibility for it to your employer.
My guest, Maya Grossman, is the author of “Invaluable: Master The 10 Skills You Need to Skyrocket Your Career” . We speak about ways to move your career ahead and satisfy your career goals.
Jeff Altman 00:04
So my guest today is Maya Grossman. Maya is a marketing executive with 15 years of experience taking products to market and driving growth for Fortune 500 companies like Microsoft and Google, as well as startups. She’s a career coach and speaker and most recently, the author of the best selling book, which I really liked, by the way, called “Valuable: Master the 10 Skills You Need to Skyrocket Your Career.” It’s an interesting and she says unconventional business book. I think it’s a wonderful business book for people who want to take control of their career and become (catch this one) obnoxiously successful. Maya, welcome, thanks for making time today. I appreciate it.
Maya Grosman 00:48
Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited for this conversation.
Jeff Altman 00:52
Oh, you say all the nice things!
Maya Grosman 00:55
Only when it’s true.
Jeff Altman 00:58
Awww. So we’re gonna be talking about becoming the CEO of your career as our topic for today. Because I think so many of you outsource your career to your employers, and it’s stupid to do that. I’ll be that blunt about it.
Maya Grosman 01:15
I mean, it might be stupid. But unfortunately, it’s something that we’ve all been conditioned to do. I mean, think about it. The first, what, 20 years of our lives, we have someone else telling us what to do. We have our parents, we have teachers, we go to college, there’s very clear guidelines, what you need to do and what you can expect. So when we step into the workforce, we all assume, ‘Oh, it’s going to be the same.’ We play by the rules. We get what we want, but it just doesn’t really work that way.
Jeff Altman 01:42
So what’s the one thing we want people to take away from from this interview?
Maya Grosman 01:47
Yeah, the main thing from this interview is, you are in control of your career. You can make anything happen. As long as you step into the driver’s seat, you become the CEO of your career, and you actually take action.
Jeff Altman 02:00
So, you’re not saying this from a place of privilege here. And I’m not trying to be facetious here. And there are some people who don’t believe they have that ability, quite obviously. And there are a variety of social dynamics that oppose them, they believe. And you’ve had a very different experience. Tell, give everyone a quick rundown on your story, how you wound up in this position?
Maya Grosman 02:24
Yeah, of course. So I actually started my career in a really nice job. I was a travel agent for almost seven years, not because I was in love with the industry, just because I had to put myself through college. So I took the first job that came along and it was a really nice company. And it was a nice job. But it wasn’t what I really wanted to do, I couldn’t really see a future there. But I kind of got stuck for about seven years, until I finally realized what I really want to do is marketing. But then I had to figure out how do I move from being a travel agent to being a marketer. And I knew no one who was actually doing marketing. I had no idea what it looked like. And I had to really figure it out. And initially, my thought was, ‘Oh, it’s impossible. I should just stay here. It’s a convenient job, you know, I’m probably going to slowly level up and, you know, build my own success here.’ But I just did not want to do that. I was looking at my manager, and I thought, ‘I don’t want her job, I want something else. And I think that need for fulfillment, for excitement, for doing some things I actually care about was a lot bigger than the fear of what the hell am I going to do? How am I going to make this move?’ So I did a lot of online research. I figured out what marketing is and what a job in marketing could look like. And then I came up with this idea, because I knew I needed experience. And there was no way that I can get an experience as a travel agent, unless I create an opportunity for myself.
Jeff Altman 04:00
I’m going to pause you right here because you know, you’re already given a lot. So number one is noticed the mindset of it’s not hopeless, because I think so many people who are looking to career change, view their circumstances as hopeless. ‘It’s not possible, I can’t do it.’ And you’ve got to take some risks and some challenges to try and minimize some of the impacts of the risk. And I think that’s what you’re gonna get to next. Like, you start to look at how to do this with minimal risk. And please continue.
Maya Grosman 04:31
Yeah, but I actually just want to say something. I genuinely believe that we are capable of doing anything that we want, unless it defies the laws of physics. So anything is possible for everyone. It doesn’t matter where you start. It doesn’t matter what your circumstances are, what you have or don’t have. I genuinely believe you can change that. And we can talk about how to do that later. So for me, I was in this job. I wanted to get experience. But I didn’t want to quit my day job, right. I still had to pay rent. So I went to my manager and I said, ‘Hey, I have this idea. I’ve been really interested in social media. These were like the first days of Facebook and Twitter. This is how old I am. And I said, I’m going to open a Facebook page. I’m going to do it in, you know, my spare time. But I think it’s really going to help the travel agency. It’s going to get us more customers. And since I’ve been there for about six years, at this point, they trusted me. So they said no problem. And I kept doing my my day job, right? I didn’t slack off. I did everything I had to do and I spent probably another hour every day working on creating that Facebook page. And about six months later, I had real experience because I created the page, I created content, I actually, you know, was able to drive traffic, I was able to demonstrate how it helped us get clients. So at that point, I felt a lot more confident to actually apply for Social Media Marketing jobs. And I got one.
Should I Confirm an Interview?
Jeff Altman 06:03
So folks, again, notice what she did, because the story is great. And I want to translate this for the audience, which is, if you gotta do something on your own time, while you’re still executing your real job (put real job in air quotes, of course), you got to do what you got to do to get the experience. Because it’s hard to get someone to pay to give you that experience,. You may have to figure out ways to do it for free, in order to get the experience that will allow you to be marketable in the new career. Got that one right?
Maya Grosman 06:38
Yes, and look how amazing it is. I actually did something that benefited the company, right? They got something out of it as well as I did, which was a win win. So it’s almost like a no brainer. And I think sometimes people forget that. You know, you can get a lot of experience, even if it’s not part of your job description with the company you’re at. I’ve actually done that throughout my career. Every time I wanted to learn something new, I just asked for another project or, you know, I supported another team, something within that ecosystem of my own company to actually gain additional experience that essentially qualified me for the next level.
Jeff Altman 07:19
I know for myself, I did search for a lot of years. Along the way, I figured out there were things like YouTube and podcasting that I was interested in that I thought would allow me to differentiate myself from others. I was associated with a firm at that time. And I started to write more business because people got to know, like, trust, and respect me, when most of the time, they hated recruiters. And the benefit for the organization beyond simply the sales I was doing was that other people started to do sales, because they would recognize me from the firm. And thus they would come back as I would talk about jobs I was recruiting for, they would go back to other people in the office, who they already had relationships with and that drove sales for them. Doing things that promote the organization benefits the organization. And you folks are smart enough to start figuring some of these things, some of these things out.
Maya Grosman 08:15
Yeah, it’s all part of adopting an owner’s mindset. And it’s something I write about in the book, right? It’s, you know, not to just be focused on your narrow vision of your own job description. But thinking about the entire company. If you were the owner, what would you think? How would you prioritize? How would you want people to do their job? And when you start thinking about the bigger picture, you’re able to really gain that added experience? Because you’re thinking a lot broader.
Jeff Altman 08:46
Owner, doesn’t always mean ‘the owner’ like at Google, or Microsoft. It could be your immediate manager, quite obviously, identifying issues that are surfacing and working on resolving them. I think there were a couple of examples of that, that you mentioned the book with communications issues, for example.
Maya Grosman 09:09
Yeah, so we talked about being a fixer meaning seeing problems and finding ways to fix them even when it’s not your job. And obviously, you need to be strategic, you can’t just go around and solve every problem at the company, but you need to find problems that will actually allow you to learn new skills skills that you’re looking to acquire. You can be an opportunity digger, meaning you can proactively look for opportunities for you to either level up, do more work or gain more skills. And one of my favorite examples, a lot of people really want to be leaders, they want to level up into the management level. But you know, the company doesn’t have the headcount, right? They have no one to actually teach and manage. So what I usually tell people is ‘Great find someone at the company, no matter where, which department, was more junior than you and become a mentor. Because essentially, you’ll be doing a lot of the same things right? You’ll have to get feedback, you’ll have to help them grow, you’ll create opportunities for them. And that’s something so easy so many people can do IF they’re intentional. They actually ask themselves, ‘what is the skill that I want to learn?’ And then they spend time brainstorming. How can I actually learn this skill within the company I work for?
Jeff Altman 10:26
And I also think in terms of upskilling, and reskilling, because at times, that becomes a necessary component. And this is the part that people hate to hear, even if you have to write the check yourself.
Leadership During Times of Extreme Fear
Maya Grosman 10:39
Yep, exactly.
Jeff Altman 10:41
So becoming a CEO of your career sounds like a big deal. Because we’re talking CEO, and people have this image of what it means to be a CEO. What do you mean?
Maya Grosman 10:57
Well, I think in general, being the CEO just means you’re in control. You’re the one who is calling the shots. And what I described earlier, when you let someone else, like a company or your manager make decisions for you, like when you should get promoted, whether you should even get a promotion, I think you’re kind of outsourcing your success. You’re relying on someone else to give you what you want. And it’s probably not the best career strategy, because here’s the thing– No one will ever care about your career as much as you do. So if you really want to be successful, if you have dreams and ambitions, you need to make them happen. Yes, you will still need people, right? You will need to build influence. You will need to get them to really help you. But you need to drive the ship, because no one is going to do that for you.
Jeff Altman 11:48
And I love the idea of not outsourcing the career. Because so many people do. They trust that the company has their interests at heart. meaning the employees’ interests at heart. When we both know that isn’t true. They’ve got the institution’s interests at heart, and secondarily, the person’s.
Maya Grosman 12:09
Yeah, companies are made of people. And you might find amazing people, too. But that doesn’t mean they can actually give you everything that you’ve been in situations where my managers wanted to promote me. But there was pushback from, you know, higher up or there wasn’t the right headcount. So even with the best intentions, it doesn’t always work.
Jeff Altman 12:30
So in this age of business transformation, and agile development, which basically says, ‘We want you to conform to certain standards, and behaviors and structures. And when people start confronting those resistances, because they are friction points institutionally, how do they start breaking through some of them, so they start to achieve what they want to achieve?
Maya Grosman 12:56
Yeah, I think you probably have, you have three options. In a situation like this. You can do nothing, and just say it is what it is. This is my life. I’m just gonna do what is asked of me. Not my favorite route. But you know what? There are seasons in our lives, when we’re not, we’re not up for the fight. And that’s perfectly fine as long as you’re aware that this is what you’re doing. You can always leave, right? If it’s not a good place for you, if you’re not able to level up, if you’re not learning, if you’re if you hate every single day you have to do your job, find something else. I know, it’s daunting, but we spent 90,000 hours at work throughout our lives, you do not deserve to hate all of it. It’s it’s way too much time, right? So be kind to yourself and find another option. And the third one, and this is something I’ve tried many times, sometimes it works sometimes not so much. I try to change the situation from within. So I try to assess and understand why the people usually above me, are treating me the way that they are. Why they’re requiring different standards and where is it coming from? And a lot of the time, you’ll find out, it has nothing to do with the actual work. And it’s about their problems, their mindset, their fears. And if you can really tap into that you can find a solution. So, for example, I’ve talked to so many people who think their manager is intimidated by them, because they’re doing amazing work. And that person is now trying to stop them from leveling up. What you need to do is just to demonstrate that you’re not going to take their job, and the more that you’re successful, the more they are successful. And the best way to do that is to figure out what your manager’s goals are and make sure that your work aligns with their goals that you’re trying to optimize for them to win. And when you do that you take away that fear. You demonstrate that you’re part of the same team, that you’re working for them that you have their back And I actually have done this before and was successful in changing that perspective, and building really strong relationships with my managers.
Jeff Altman 15:08
Your job as an employee is to make your manager look good.
Maya Grosman 15:13
It is.
Jeff Altman 15:14
Yes. And we’re also dealing with a time where at we’re recording this, turnover is 30%, within the first six months of someone’s join.
When You’ve Been Made Redundant, Fired, Laid Off, RIF’d
Maya Grosman 15:28
It’s insane.
Jeff Altman 15:29
It really is, which to me kind of lends itself to the desperation of being a manager. I really need someone. I’ll say almost anything to get them on board even if I know that the last four people who sat at the desk I’m going to ask this person to sit at, or who use the same login, left because (). And this problem has not resolved itself. In cases where people discover the institutional friction, I don’t know if that was your experience at any point, but do you encourage people to leave? Do you encourage people to persevere? I know it’s a little bit of a tangent on the road of becoming the CEO of your career. But I do think it’s important for people to hear that they have options, whatever they might be.
Maya Grosman 16:26
Yeah, so I grew up with this notion of I’m not a quitter. But thankfully, later in my career, I learned that sometimes quitting is the best thing you can do for yourself. So I usually try to solve the problem. I try to understand where people are coming from. I try to drive change from within. And one thing that has been really helpful in that, and this is advice I got from my manager in Microsoft years ago, and I still follow, especially when you work for a big corporation and it’s all about, ‘don’t ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.’ Because here’s the thing– There may be a lot of rules. But if you get results, most people would ignore the rules. So I would use caution here. Not everything you do should, you know, go against the rules. But I’ve done that quite a few times that I kind of found a backdoor to do the things I wanted to do. And as long as I was able to show results, all the people who kind of held the stop sign before, were clapping and saying amazing. How did you do that? And I’m like, ‘Yeah, I stopped listening to you and I did what I thought was right.’ So sometimes that is an option. But if all else fails, yeah, leave because it’s your life, it’s your mental health, you really shouldn’t stay in a place that is keeping you down. And I understand that sometimes, you know, it’s not easy, right? Because you need the paycheck or you don’t have the bandwidth to actually look for something else. Well, at least start thinking about it. Create a plan, take baby steps, even if it takes you a year, but consistently strive to make that change. Otherwise, you’ll just, you know, cruise along and you’ll hate your job. And it will probably impact your personal life and you’ll just be miserable.
Jeff Altman 18:20
And it will impact who you are as a person. What happens I find with many people, is when they keep bumping their head up against the wall, they learn. Don’t do this. And unfortunately that leads them to becoming mediocre.
Maya Grosman 18:38
Yeah, if you compromise, yes, that’s if you notice, this is not something that I mentioned. I did not necessarily say compromise. I said, if you have absolutely no way to drive change, and you have to get your paycheck, then stick around for a little bit more, but make plans for the getaway.
Jeff Altman 18:56
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Now I want to talk with you about some of the skills people need to develop in order to take charge of their careers. So I’m gonna hand the baton to you to run with. Let’s talk about some of those skills. Okay.
Maya Grosman 19:11
Yeah. So when it comes to really managing your career, it actually starts with mindset. People think it starts with the how, with the tools, with strategy. It actually 
starts with the mindset because here’s the thing–most people never rise above their own belief of what they’re capable of. Meaning, if you don’t believe you can do something, you probably can’t do it. So step number one is to actually believe that you’re in control. And you can actually drive your career where ever you want to take it. And it’s a process. It doesn’t usually happen, you know, overnight. But if you keep reminding yourself and if you take really tiny, small steps and you see success in the long term that’s going to convince you that you actually have the power to drive change. And here’s a great Exam. While I was actually working with a client recently, who was stuck at the same job for like, three years, really wanted to level up, he tried. There was a lot of pushback. And at some point, he was just like, ‘Okay, I’m probably not ready. I’m probably not good enough. I’m probably just, you know, not the right person for the next level. And after working with me for a little bit, within six weeks, he was promoted at a different company, and was able to become a people manager, which was his dream. And it’s all because he switched his mindset. And he started thinking, ‘I can do it.’ And now he started asking himself, ‘how can I do it?’ So that’s always the first step.
Jeff Altman 20:41
I think I can, I think I can, is The Little Engine That Could is a children’s story. Because it starts with the belief. And then for humans, not children’s books, we switch into how– how do we move ahead? What do I need to know? What do I need to do? What are the steps to do this? And you gave a great example of this with this person. What else do people do to kind of upskill and move forward in their careers?
Maya Grosman 21:12
Yeah, so the next step is to have an ICP, which is an ideal candidate profile. What is the destination? Where are you going? Do you have a specific role that you want to land into? Is this a move up? Is this a pivot that you want to do laterally? I mean, what do you actually want? And when I ask people that, for the most part, they have no idea like, ‘oh, I want to be in marketing,’ or, you know, ‘I just really want to level up!’ Okay, great! Level up where? There are so many different ways. And unless you get really specific, and I teach people how to come up with one sentence that explains exactly what they want to do. And it includes the job title, it’s the industry and if they can even what type of company they want to work for, because the more specific you are, the easier it will be to build a plan that will actually get you there. So, mindset. You need to understand where you’re going and then you need to build a plan.
Jeff Altman 22:14
The plan? So how do people construct a plan once they have an idea of . . . they’re much clearer about what they want to do? How’s that?
Maya Grosman 22:25
Yeah, that’s, that’s the funny part. Most people think the How is the hardest part. But it’s actually not because success leaves clues. So essentially, if you want to get into a specific role, all you need to do is go and talk to 10 people who have the job that you want to have and are in similar companies to the company you’re at, and get the information from them. How did you get here? What skills are you using? What does your day to day look like? You know, if you were starting over? What would you spend time on. And if you do that, and you gain all this information, you will essentially have the playbook on how to get to that next level.
Jeff Altman 23:06
Because it’s cookie cutter, to a real degree. Once you understand how the cookies are made, you can replicate it, and do it for yourself, you can tweak it along the way, because times may have changed for that since that person did it. You’re a different person, you may have different ambitions, but you’ve got the framework to work from, and thus can start pursuing it. Whether that involves training or other things.
Maya Grosman 23:34
Yeah, exactly. And, again, it’s very hard to achieve your dreams, if they’re very vague. And when I talk about making a plan, I mean, really breaking everything down into tasks that you can follow up on every single week. So when you create a career plan, you’re gonna have this Northstar, right? The destination. You’re going to have a list of things or skills that you need to acquire. But then you’re going to have to figure out how to actually do that. Remember my story at the beginning about how to gain social media experience. You need to apply the same thinking here, right? So if, for example, you want to learn how to use a new tool, well, do you take an online course? Do you just download the software and play with it. You really need to come up with ways to gain that experience. And then and this is probably one of the hardest parts because a lot of people get excited, they create their plan. They have a destination, and they do it for a full week and they quit. But, managing your career is like going to the gym. You cannot do it once and expect a six pack. You have to be consistent. You need to have a process and you need to keep doing it over and over again until you have the compounding effect of actually qualifying yourself for the next role.
Can I Walk Out on an Interview?
Jeff Altman 24:55
It’s so true. I was a marathon runner and you learn pretty quickly. And I remember running New York, and watching the people who I knew hadn’t trained, getting out there and charging out. You know, the cannon goes off on the Verrazano Bridge or you charge out, and they had no business doing that. And they’re walking within two miles. And you know, they’re not gonna finish. And it is a race. It’s a long, it could be a long race, it could be an intermediate race, but you’re training and you’re working your way to that destination.
Maya Grosman 25:33
It depends on your goals, right? Or last time I put together a plan, it took me more than seven years to accomplish everything on that plan. But I had very ambitious goals. I wanted to go from manager to CMO. Yeah, it takes it takes time. I wanted to move to a new country. So those were really big goals. You can
make plans for for the next six months. You don’t have to go crazy. If you don’t know, if you’re not sure what you want to do in the next five years, no problem. Start with the next step. What is the next thing that you want to achieve? And just consistently work on it. It’s actually a much better practice because that will allow you to turn your career work into a habit. Because here’s what happens. You come up with a plan, you have a list of things that you want to do. And then you do one of them, just one. And you’re actually successful. And you’re kind of like, ‘hey, that wasn’t too bad. I mean, I made it. Hmm, I wonder what else I can do.’ And then you do something else and you do something else. And after six months, you’re like, ‘Damn, look how far I’ve gotten. I’m here. Like I achieved my goal. What else can I do?’ And that’s how you build that muscle. That’s how you continuously practice so that you can, you know, really be successful at the end of the day.
Jeff Altman 26:51
And I’ll just remind you, folks, you can always ask yourself what’s possible now, that becomes the next step that you can do. Once you start thinking of the next possibility, there’s one that follows right behind it and thus, that destination just keeps getting closer and closer until you get to the shoreline. And this is so much fun. What haven’t we covered yet that we really should, Maya?
Maya Grosman 27:18
I think one of the things that I come across very often and we kind of touched on it is the mindset aspect and more specifically, imposter syndrome. I honestly think impostor syndrome is the silent career killer, because so many people have the desire, they have the dream, and then something stops them. And what I usually tell people when they tell me I can’t do it, I’m not ready, you know, you know, I’m a fraud. I started by saying, ‘You need to understand something very important. Your thoughts are not facts.’ Your thoughts are just stories that your brain tells you, because it wants to stop you from getting hurt. Now, if you actually believe that, you can stop for a minute, write down your thoughts. I’m not good enough. I’m not ready. And then play detective, ask yourself, ‘Do I have proof? Can I actually demonstrate to myself that my thoughts are real?’ Are there any facts out there? And 99% of the time, the answer is no. Because it’s just in your head. And when you realize that, you can start telling yourself a better story.
Jeff Altman 28:34
And the movie I’ll remind everyone to watch is The Wizard of Oz. It’s a wonderful story about three characters who have these notions of what they’re really like and what it takes to achieve what they want in life. They’re complete fiction. And as we discover in the story, they’ve got a brain, they’ve got a heart. And I’ve dealt with a lion was but now he’s tough. He’s not cowardly. That’s what it was. And many of you, that’s the way you play it out, like those characters until you can prove it to yourself that you’re not that way.
Maya Grosman 29:17
Yeah, and, you know, I think people when they talk about imposter syndrome, they think, ‘oh, there’s a cure. I just need the cure. I’m gonna get into a room, 
someone’s gonna tell me something I’m gonna get out and I’m not going to feel it ever again.’ I have news for you. I am 41 years old. I just started my own business. And I’m still feeling like an imposter. Right? I’ve been the VP. I worked for the big companies, and I still feel the same way. What changes is how you manage it, right? Instead of getting into a funk for a full week, you know, being a little bit depressed. I now know how to do everything that I just told you in my mind. I convinced myself that I’m wrong. My thoughts are not perfect. When I tell myself a better story. And when you learn how to do that, then impostor syndrome just becomes this thing that you can get over in a couple of hours.
Jeff Altman 30:07
There used to be a sales trainer named Zig Ziglar who would talk about how you got a case a stinkin’ thinkin’.
Maya Grosman 30:16
I love that.
Jeff Altman 30:19
It’s so corn pone, but it’s true. People start to have these notions of themselves and their capabilities. They believe some story that they were told often when they were really young, when they really were that way, because they were six years old and not that smart. The parent was stupid. But no matter. Scientists have a different story.
Maya Grosman 30:46
Exactly. And it’s that easy. It’s that easy. I’m not talking about mantras. I’m just talking about instead of saying, I’m not good enough, tell yourself. I’m not good enough, yet. But I have figured out so many things in my life, I will figure this one out. And again, that’s where you go to the ‘okay, I can do it.’ How? And that’s where you take action, because you try to figure out what should I actually do to make the story real?
Jeff Altman 31:15
Amen. Oh, my God, this has been wonderful. How can people find out more about you, the book, everything?
Maya Grosman 31:26
Of course, well, I’m on LinkedIn, Maya Grossman or you can go to mayagrossman.com to learn more about the book, my courses, coaching, anything that you need to really grow your career.
Jeff Altman 31:36
Super, Maya. Thank you. And, folks, we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman. Hope you enjoy today’s interview. If you’re watching on YouTube, give it a LIKE, share it, leave a comment, do something that lets people know it was worthwhile. You know, same thing with the podcast when it comes out. Do the same stuff. It lets people know that they should spend the half hour and listen and learn.
Jeff Altman 32:02
I also want to remind you to visit my website, TheBigGameHunter.us. I’ve got a ton in the blog that will help you. It’s all searchable. Plus, you can schedule time for coaching with me. Find out about my courses, books and guides. There’s just a lot there that’s gonna help you. And lastly, connect with me on Linkedin at linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter.
Jeff Altman 32:22
Have a terrific day and most importantly, be great. Take care.
Networking When You Are Inexperienced
ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
People hire Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter to provide No BS job search coaching and career advice globally because he makes job search and succeeding
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